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 Post subject: My junk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:52 pm 
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Location: Orange County, NC
Oh where do I begin. Let's go back to 2010 to start this story. I was racing my father's car powered by an alcohol injected 377 cleveland. During the time I was racing it, the block broke. It broke the #2 main web. During dis-assembly I found the old Fisher damper fit the crank snout incredibly loose. After speaking with a couple of guys much smarter than me, it was pointed out that a poor fitting balancer will cause main webs to break. Figuring that was the issue I had the crank checked, it was straight, had another block machined (4 bolt block, studded, align honed, filled, etc) and put the motor back together using the ATI balancer (internally balanced) that I had on my 402 clevor. I ran the motor for 3 yrs and put somewhere around 300 passes on it. It ran good, I won a track championship, went a bunch of rounds, and over all is a good motor. I didnt go racing this past year at all as I was chasing gremlins in the new windsor I had built for my gf's car. I finally got it about straightened out so I pulled the motor out of my car to put rings and bearings in it and have the heads gone thru. The rod bearings looked good, the main bearings looked almost like new. But upon further inspection, this is what I found.

Image

And before anyone asks, I shift it at 7000, cross the stripe around 6800-7000 (1/8 mile only), and only have 35* of timing in the motor.

Yep, it broke the #2 main again. So, at this point about now we are looking at either the balance being off, or the ATI I put on it is fouled up. This thing was still running good when I parked it, but it had slowed a bit which I contributed to it needing new rings. It is showing a touch of cap walk, which according to a fellow racer could be contributed to me not torquing the mains tight enough with the ARP lube. I guess the old lube needs different torque specs than the new lube (like 15 ft lbs more than I torqued them to.) Either way, that could explain the cap walk using the factory caps. It was recommended I put steel aftermarket caps on the block to help get rid of the cap walk. At this point, I am not willing to put this motor back together until I figure out what is wrong with it. One of these times it will break and wipe out either those expensive rods (Oliver billet) or ruin the expensive crank (Crower forged steel.)
Since I want to go racing but dont want to throw a grand (might not be that much, but at this point might as well be) at maching a block for splayed caps, filling it, boring it, align hone, etc, I decided I would throw a stock rod motor together and run some 6.40's. My mindset is/was; I have a block to use, I have new rings and bearings, have a good cam for that combo and a set of heads already set up for that cam, could re-use my timing chain and oil pump, and other than head gaskets, have everything sitting on a shelf to put one together for practically no money spent right now. And wouldnt ya know it, after taking my stone hone to the block I thought was good enough to use, I found it is also F'ed up and needs a sleeve. I have another block that is already bored, but it needs filled and also needs a sleeve. Man, I cant catch a break.

Image

Edit= I forgot to mention I am incredibly close to selling ALL of my cleveland stuff, taking a loss on it and building a stroker windsor and probably run faster than I am now without constantly breaking shit.


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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:02 pm 
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Sorry to hear that....

I see the fretting from the caps walking. Not too convinced it's the torque spec. I think you're just seeing the limitations of a factory block.

I wouldn't turn my head to a Windsor block, but I think I'd throw the C heads on it.

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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:14 pm 
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Location: Orange County, NC
blykins wrote:
Sorry to hear that....

I see the fretting from the caps walking. Not too convinced it's the torque spec. I think you're just seeing the limitations of a factory block.

I wouldn't turn my head to a Windsor block, but I think I'd throw the C heads on it.


I'm lucky if it's making 625 at the flywheel. I know guys are making more than that with factory blocks, how the hell are they doing it?


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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:39 pm 
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Pouring the blocks, billet caps.....

Or you may just have a combination that's a little hard on parts. :)

What was your bobweight?

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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:10 pm 
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Location: Orange County, NC
I dont know. I didnt build this motor originally so I dont have that info. The fella my dad bought the car from built it originally in '95 or 96. I'm going to get the balance checked, and if it's not off, I dont know what I am going to do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:24 am 
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Something is up. The fretting isn't too abnormal (not good, but not abnormal) but the #2 main being the victim should tell us something.

Got pics of the main bearings?

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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:20 am 
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It would be interesting to see if going to a stiffer cap would help when the strength of the main webbing is marginal. I did that on the 408 that I built for the Engine Masters' about 10 years ago and that engine is still being run in a Cobra replica. I was concerned about the main webbing because we were running 12.3:1 compression, 91 octane, a 4 inch stroke from 2000-6500rpm and making more than 630 horsepower. I did quite a few pulls on the engine before we went to the contest and it did just fine. A friend of mine rebuilt the engine a couple of years ago to lower the compression ratio and everything looked good. That block is a regular production with Pro Gram caps on 1,2,3 and 4 and filled to the bottom of the water pump holes.

With all that said I doubt it has the amount of run time that your engine has after a few hundred passes either.

Unless you go aftermarket I'm not convinced that the Windsor block is superior in any way. They have the same cylinder wall thickness as the Cleveland and very similar(flimsy) main webbing. The do have more room for stroking/cubic inches.


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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:03 am 
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Location: Massachusetts
Just curious about cap walk. Is there to much clearance between the cap thru holes and the bolts / studs that cause this? Do dowel pins help?


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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:04 am 
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Dowels help a lot. Most of your good aftermarket blocks have the caps pinned, 4 bolt splayed caps, etc.

It's usually just from a ton of power being put through the block. Makes things squirm.

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 Post subject: Re: My junk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:34 am 
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kv racing wrote:
blykins wrote:
Sorry to hear that....

I see the fretting from the caps walking. Not too convinced it's the torque spec. I think you're just seeing the limitations of a factory block.

I wouldn't turn my head to a Windsor block, but I think I'd throw the C heads on it.


I'm lucky if it's making 625 at the flywheel. I know guys are making more than that with factory blocks, how the hell are they doing it?


Luck. Or in your case, lack there of. I've seen fretting on my engines at 500 HP. And that was with well registered caps and ARP studs under full torque and a very tight fitting aftermarket balancer. I run into people spraying the crap out of a 302 block and having no issues, and have also seen many come apart at 550~650 HP NA just making passes. My last 351C block split 5 cylinders in less that two years, maybe 300 rounds. The block in the Mustang has over 3000 rounds on it and still has crosshatch on the walls.

I have a 72 351W block I may use next - it's at least 30 lbs heavier than a C block. Not sure where all that meat is, I'd not think it's in .3 more deck. I think I'd be more comfortable at 550ish HP in a W block than a C, but who knows. The other thing with using a W block is that if - IF - you catch it in time, you can at least run a while before you toss that block. And most of your parts would all fit in a Dart, et al 9.5 replacement. Or at least the truck side of the wrecking yard should yield several replacement blocks.

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Last edited by Falcon67 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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